--- PAGE 1 --- • L., U NIT ED S TATES A TOMIC ENE RG Y C OMM I SSIO N LOS ALAMOS, NEW MEXICO Authority: ADDRESS REPLY TO : 11ANAGER, SANTA FE DIRECTED OPERATIONS NND 58378 IJ, S. A TOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION P. 0. BOX 1539 LOS ALAMOS, NEW M EXICO ANO REF ER TO: SFD- 3- 1 i.:a.r ch 22 , 1949 ----- _____,_ - - _____, 1----- --- --- ----1 ------ Lt . Cndr . Riche.r d :..o.;:1do ll:or n - 1-,:,,,M ------ -..- - - I - _ _ _ __ M'S',."? !Ieo.dqv.o.r tero Sn.:.1dia Bo.se 1-1--/ _ Llb uq uer quo , Ect, Lc::i co "N" - -,-1---- 1--1~-1- Doe..r Cmdr . : )1.~ell:or n : i-,.,~0:-1-4,-N-- - - - - - Furnished herevr'.th is o. Jcro..rncriyt of 1------'-'---I- - - ----1 ,----- - - - -,,----• ~F. - - --1 t:1e r:iinutos of t:10 co~u'erencc :1old o.t FILE - - I~...,,.,,_~~ - - - - - - -1'.a/..-y - -. ---1 Lo:. Alll'D.03 ?ebr uo.rJ 16 , 1949 , per to.bi:ir; -1 to c.cr ial ph0nono1ul.. Ver y t ruly yours , \ ~ ~ --12~ Sid::'.Cy ~ 1-;bw/gcr , Jr . 4 ~ a- .t.r Chief , Security Ope r ations Br anch E~cl : / fu; i,.di cn.tod De~ent of Eno«e)' ~ eluoific~tict> Remw -- 1"fll'fllW•CY.li:2AAQC91 ~~';;,~~~~~~Mecl,(S1J 11 When SGp"'rut d handle this ~r:°""o!u ""lit Z, Cv.ss:fi CATOiltf C,WAAl) fO- 3. CQO('IMlS HO OCEcv.se,hEO iwo"' document as _____ ...:...-----,--- II .~°"' ~ ,.,.~IIS,ff-°"11'; 4.CO::~Tev..nt -- ~ , c o < S CUS$fllll>•-,OlftA<>1etaor Society; w-as most certainly not a. conventioll81 meteorite fall. It -was the so-called St:U.--vation Peak incident on the night of December 1.2, 19116. 'l'iue of observation around 9;02 P.M., plus or minus 30 seconds. This rir0·oa11 nppeared in full intenoity instantly • there was no increase in light. Its color,, estimated to be somewhere arotmd wave length 5200 engstroma, .ms a. hue green, or yello-11 green, such ae I had never observed in meteor falls before. The path ua.e a& I!.etlrly horizontal as one could determine by visual observation. We have ~ pho·togra:1>h which might be some li--;; ra ot departure from horizontal.. The trajectory was traverse at, I am inclined to believe, constant angular velocity. Just befor0 the end of the pat;h ·there we.a the very 811gb.test drooping of the path, that io the green fireball broke into fragments, still bright green. Dr. Teller: And all this time the intensity uas approxiJDately constant? Dr. !.a.Paz:: All -the time, as fa'.!." ae I cou.ld determine. The eye, of course, is e.dmitted.l.~r a very crude phcrcographer. Dr. Teller: Rov long did the phenomenon last1 Dr. 1-.'i.Paz~ Almost exactly two i:;econds. We have in the reports here, I brought the com:plt::te file nth ma and uould be glad. to circulate them, duration measures in 1•ela.tion. to all observations. Fev of -these, h~rever, I believe, were deter.Jlinoo under as favorable circumstancea as the duration of the Starvation Peak incident. Possibly I should go back and review the situation a little bit. Because oom~ report, iaau.ed by the AESS, uoul.d certain]Jr suggest that I was prinillrily responsible for starting this whole matter I am glad that Captain Reel' corrected that impression. Actually:- I YaS on an investigation in regard to -'che green fireball. observed on tho night of December 5th at the time the Dece111ber 12th incident occurretl. As a :result I was keyed up; I was 'WBtehing; I h'.1.cl a stop vatch with me and a transit. We got into position and made measures, transit :ciee,suros, on azimuths and elevation readings; that is, we ma.de a dm.·a:cion check, certainly within not more than tvo or three minutes sftor the incident occurred. To that extent, I believe, it is posaibly' the best observed ot any incident up to tha time of the January 30th fall. Dr. Manl~r: Hem did you have time to use ·t;b.e tranai t? Dr. La.Po.~: The transit was in the back of ·the car. The mament the car was parked a:c the aide of th2 road, we yanked. the transit out and set 1t u,p and --- PAGE 4 --- , Conference on AEBJ.AL PHENOMENA • Page 3 began meauurement.s. We were i r. motion at the time but ,re ve1•e able to ge·t; a very good check of 'Uhat w obsc!'Ved at the time on the road near Starvation Peak. Ue had a cJ.ea.r view of the sky to the Northwest om the WeBt, and the object wan so low over the horlzon it was possible to compare 1t not o:nly to the ste.:r•a irith which I am f'am1J.iar, but with 1--espect to Il¥)untain peaks -~t were also visible. To continue, that duration vas a.bout two second.Q. 'l'his is one of tho puzzling ~ s to the meteorists. I believe I do not exaggerate -.:hen I say tila:'c ':}(:ffa of the d~tion detcrmi:nations that have bclen made 1n the case of the green f'il."'eballs have given durations right in that vicinity. Whel'ees you -take, sa.y, 100 ord:luarymeteor observations you will :tind the ·widest diversions in durations. You could take tbe same leason a.a observed by 100 people - possibly that 0 z a better example .. and there would be wide va.rietionn in the estimates of dm-ation. Dr. MaDl.e~r: Did you correlate the ardmu.tha vi th ..•.. '? Dr. LaPe.z : No. T'.iJ.ere ie an azimuth factor here which I am goiDg to talk to you about, that relates to the choice of clirection. Both our observations are single station observations, no that it beeomes impossible ~am the observe.• tion mec.aure to deter.nine the x·eal path of the fireball in the atmosphere. There have been only 'three caeea vhere the.t path was determinable. one, as I rece.ll it.:- 'W'aS tbat of Dacembez- 12, a.ncrcher December 20, and f'1nally, of course, the very :.nrge fall 0,.1 January 30, 1949. Pll give you some particulars on the path3. I do wrm:c to observe, however, that even our station observations present a puzzling eharacteris·,ic to the meteorista. I f you plot what are called, by meteorists, the admiosible protozons for a gi'een fireball tbat has been obse11Ved, you vill find thut they give, on the average, an approach al:most to the North, come dOffll. from the North, they are not restricted to 'l • Bow whe.t about. -I.he real patbo? I e;ave sane indications e.s to the altitude at which m.eteoriteo normally disrupt full . . . . . and cme d0m1. That relates to the loi-rest . . . . . o~ path. The green fireballs are unusual in this respect: probably that they a.re horizontal or nearly so, or that their horizontal path is traverced very lcn1 down in the otmosphere. In the ce.se of the real paths f'or wicl'l vre have be - able to make determinations so ~e;r, those are sra,phical determinations, as ve have not taken the trouble to use Chablis (t) method& or . . . . . bec~use the observstions a.re regarded aa necessarily too rough for • ema.tical niceties. Those paths are ·traversed at elevations between 8 and 10 d.lee. I defy you to find anywhere amoDg meteorists, examples of conven­ tional. meteorites that move over long horizontal. pa.tbs reserving nearly constant angular velocities a.nd t.herefo1·e, on the average, con.st.ant linear velocities, at elevat iomi of the order o-r 8 to 10 miles. There is a good deal of evidence that may be of value in the complete reports that a.re available hore, but since this is sn introduction, I wuld like to summarize at. this stage: the fireball which I personoJ.1y vi tnesaed on the night of December 12, 1948, ws not, in my opinion, e. conventional. meteor :fall. S1!1Ce the majority of the green fireballs nave been reported to me, both before and. a:fter this December 12th occurrence., poeeess elnost all the propertielil vbich I persOllally observed on the night of December 12th, I feel that 1n all probabillty they are not themselves conven­ tional met,eol~ falls. Now, the easy wy out of this is -to coajure u;p an un•. conventional. type of . . . . . metcorite, vhioh comes in practically parallel to the --- PAGE 5 --- • Conference on AEICAL PHENOMENA Page 4 surface of the e~~h and is aa.:i.ehol{ eadowcd vi th tbe property against the very grea"i:, atmor.pher1c reointance tlmt is experienced. on a level, it reserves neerly eons-t-..e.n.t ve1lccity over paths say of th.e order of 25 to over 100 miles, as in the case oi' the greeu fireball en January 30th. It should also bave the property that i t is a very remerkable h·t1e of green, not heretofore observed, to my knowledge, in "i:.ho case of a:ey- conveutional meteor falls. And finally, and this pcseibly Ls the moa·I; i.1;1plausible :t"ea.ture of c.ll, that although 1 t produce:, l:i.ght vi:;i".)lc at distances of the o:rder o-f 1!00 miles, i t doeSI1't make e.. sound. J.:n the case of che Jru.?.uary 30th fell, due to the fact that there had been o. lcre;e mmibcr of milltc1-"7 :persoxmi:?l alerted, ve wre able to obtain obeervat:i.ona vith".n a minute af'\,je? the fall occurred end pursued the investiga­ tion over E'. d.i.atsncc of 1,600 miles - in Texas mud. prim2r1ly! - in some ten ,,e saw not one substan.. days• ti!lle inte..'1"V'ie'lf'lng literaJ.J.y hundreds oz people, tio.ted accc,unt ot no:l.ee produced by the meteorite fall. Dr. Teller:· V.ay I a.ok how many people have seen this one big meteorite? Dr. laPaz: T'ABt .:a difficult to say. (r~cord blank for abort perl,od) •••••••• FinaUy, ir: the illten-ogation of such persons, w invariably interview them ae individuaJ.t1. lie •:;rlod a :f'amily o'f 8 the first night, as Majo:z- Godsoe will recall.• :i.n·· erviev-lng ..•.. and :tt became apparent at once that there vas same i;ympe:chetiu influence o.nd we broke j_t off after I think the th:trd or fourth oboervatiOI~ c.:nd thereafter inte:.'.'Vie,red separately. Ii' you were to search, howe"ter, the inde::9endent observations of those who were v.tdely separated, !'.)ossibly stations o! the order of 100, ·there lrere probe.bl.y 100 ditterent staticna Teporting. D1·. Teller: What area did that cover? Dr. taPa8: All o::' New.Mexico, ell the Western half of Texas. I have a map here mth ume indic:itions of possibly the extent of that. Hoyt and B:•adbury: Wasn°t that Sunday the 2l~th? Dr. L~az: Ro, 1-t was definitely Sunday tha 30th. The nevspapers have very hrlrfull.Y conceelccl mst of the r~levan'G facts relating to tb.is f'ireball. First., they described it as a firebaJ.l., second, ·they .••• (record blank tor f'ev seconds). interi'eri·ec. m.th OSI and mum ~t a.ble to do that this time. Thie is the f'ield map and ,rll.l give 111 various eolore, dots and pencil .-son.9.l.ly or such obuerva­ tions as I have c-,1cry reason to believe ,,rere Jnade by experienced personnel, for exam.ple UAL flyers, who took tll~ trouble to make measures, or possib~ civil engj.neel'G. Dr. Teller: You mean theae people right afterwards or shortly a.f'term,.rds took an i11st1'Ull:en:c e.tit. tried ·:;o meavure it? Dr. u.Pa.z: '.!..'hat a right. Dr. Teller: Thie is the po:Lnt where 1t disappeared? Dr. LaPa.z: And r.01-me.J.l..y', all you td.ll get is the point where it disappears, becauae t.te ave1•£1gc man is ali'ar~ ot the fa.ct that when he i i , not w.rned, he mak~s e. very im.t:curate observation. Having been uai-ned by- the appearance 0: the fireball, hio attent:J.on is fixed and he wtches where it bursts, where it explodes, where :it disappears. So I say thia is a much better det.o:m:Snaticm.. This begirning point, al-though you notice the .•.. of line here, is reasonably sa.tisfactcry. Dr. Te.lle1·: Are these points here observers of the teat, locations of those obs~rvatic:118? • Dr. LaPaz: Usua.Uy e. dotted c::rcle like tb&t illd1ca.tes a. reported sound obSe't'"• vation. f'e use this symbol: n c11·cle is a report, whether or not the observation includ.es azimuth o:? elevation, light appearances, is indicated ,,....,,. the preser.ce of a. cross. U i"G is blacked out, both light and aound vere heard. nu, ever;/ one o~ those thiI!go baa been disproved. In the area vb.ere the end poin.t w.u located, oil well drilling was underuay, dynamite blasting in connection 'f7i th ae'c·ting up of i-igs, same nitro beill,g used apparently to ehe:tter . . . . . In ave17 case ,re .rere able to e%Cl.ude the posaibil.1ty that the noioea :reported 00-tu.s..Uy 't1ere ·ded 1n vith the meteorite fal1. At least let me say, 1It my op:;.n:Lon, those noisee vere excluded. In certain cases, 1nde:pe.ndet:.tly, ths.:~ ws conf'ir~ed by a visit of Lt. Rym:l. of the Roswell group of -the om:. For instance, the best case of all, near Amherst ? , or noise - the obeer\-er, i t ea true, was only a ten-year old boy, but be wrote a very intelligent letwr, and 1t is 1:-ell lmO"W tbat children, like en1maJ e, are more seru:;i tive to sound than people v.bo have listened for too many years, say, to the xa.dio. It appeared eonceiva.blo that he had actually made a soUDd observa­ tion, but Lt. Ryan uent to Amhent ?, found that even three members of the family "i!ere not able to confirm his observation of noise cmd. no oue 1n the town, aome 300 o:r 4oo persons I think in all vere eetimated to have been visited, l'.O one o.t all had hem,! a sound, so I think that Mike probably hen.rd the samll! c ~tc blaat as had been reported by Miss Winoon Didpasture .. I diful't tal.e that name out of the tunny papers, it actually exists. ( continual e~nation of the maps m th minor interrogations concern1.Dg markings.) --- PAGE 7 --- • Con:rerence on AERIAL PIDmO:mNA. Page 6 Dr. Le.Paz: W!th 0&"1e exception, in the ca.a,.., of' Roswell, there e.re two types of cound aasoci&ted 11ith meteorite fu.lls end, I acsume, associated vi.th the motion of any very high velocity projectile or missile through tbe air. T°J'.lere sre vb.at ~rc1c1ats wuld cul reczoneble oounda, end while he would not acknm,lede;e i J.;, s1multaneouoly with ~.;he c.ppaarcnce or a meteor1te, you hear c. meteorite, yhc physicist ,;rill refuse to believe the observation. revert.Jwleas, there i.a a tremendous volume of evidenc indicating that these m~maloU3 sc'\lllds oc:cu:..-red. Anyone who cioes field work 1n the search for zaeteo:rites 'tr.Lil c0:.1e acroso possibly 'JUI, oi' the observers who say that, although my a"i.tention ~ attracted by hn-..ari.Il8, a miining noise, e vhistling noioc: I looked up and ·Ghere ,mo the fir~bal.l. In o:ther words, this ana:nalnus 1?:ound a.ppe.rently attracts attention to the occurrence. I bnve an article by Brandon . . • . . one of ·Ghe flO!I.S of the man w~ first investigated the great creter out :,.n Ar1Zon3, and. s chap by the name or Bart ? vith 1r"ho:n I am not perao:aally ccgy.z.dnted but a :p~~icist ap_parontly at Princeton, 1n which they etteJeyt ·w ~ uotify t.b.e occurrence of ano:m.1.ous sound. They express 1 t roughly in th:f.a fe:aion. Elcctro.I!t3gnctic radiation is net up by (Dr. Teller excused. to anawer the phone.) Dr. L3.Pllz: You wouldn't believe it anylray! Ho~r, •.••• electromagii.etic ra.d.iction iu rectified somehow by the . • . • . changed into sound tbat can be heard and, •aieref'ore, you cu. he:u- the reetcorite at the seme time you ece it fell. In the case of the Roswell observation apparently that occurred. t::e have e;ro,.ql of five men • there uerc nea.r a. stee1 '1!ll0kestack • ond tSVfi1rY le.ct one of them m;e1.""'0 that they heard at the same time they were va.tchillS the green f:.reball eo by, c. noise like, se.y., o eaeoline blOV"torch. 'lb:lt ie ccrtoinly not an ordinary explosives cound. One :core thing in connection m:'Gb the noirnea. In every other :meteorite f'all, any one meteorite :tall that I ho.vc inventigated, - that cove1·0 ms.ey yea.rs .. I have ver yet found sn occasion of n detonating fireball., vithout meteorites caning dovn at all, :!.:!'l '!rh.ich ·chore vao not sam.e evidence of ala..""l!l of an1rnal s. Chickmls will fly e:-oun.il to tcy to uet under cover. DogG vill howl o.nd try to get into the houGe. liorsea vill run o.vay. In the ca6~ of the TCJm.s fall., in epite or the tranend.oun a.reg:. in llbich the llght 1,-as obcerved., we found not a a1ngl.e caoe in which ·c.ho w1rool6 vere disturbed. We lm2w ;,t the cdtie of a farmer who hwl, in mmny Te.me, a pond vi.the f'ive-inch layer of ice, tmo reported that e. ~~teori te had foll.en through the ice on tbat pond, had broken a hole. Captain Neef here pu-'c on o. pair of rubber booto l.1lld very thoroushly searched the pom wi-'Gho it finding n meteorite. Even 1u that oaoo there vae no evidence of alarm by ~h~ e.n1nm,Jo. I bel.ievc vith tlmt aummary, I'd better cease operations and have yo 1 o.sk quetrl;icma. Q-u.estion: llou ?mny obnerved fall.6? Dr. L9.Paz: I'd like to clasaify thooo into three groups. I ·would 88-,Y that there ere ten instances that definitely merit the moat eerioue conaidere.tion. They are strictly e.mlogous to the green fireballs of the night of December 12. On top of that, there muat be sauething of the order of tmmtymore which ere --- PAGE 8 --- • Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 7 so ·irell rapo:..'ted, from Los Alaoos for example, tha.t although the green fire­ bsllu observed ohoved small . • . • the na.ture of the fireball • • • • many obs~rva"iiions ot ob3ervers· lrho paid prectically no attention to the sky at P.ny other time in their lives and now vhen they see a really bright light, they report it. You will find a great; na.ny instances of bluish-white tire• balls. In my op:!.nion, thoi.;e fa.lJ.iug vertical.ly and leaving trails, are c:iro:ply ordinary shooting stars. Of high intensity, that is, what we call fircbal.l.s, a blue light, 8.1.'e not in ezr:, sense to be associated with the green lights. Those th...-ee categories ·chen. Dr. Mmley: ? Dr. La.Paz: In the ce,se of the tuo green fireball paths, determined from Los Ala::no:s obse:r-·tations, in one caae the Ste.rvation Peak incident, we have an Ea.st-Wet3t :modon, and then also a motion exactly parallel to ••••• In other 'lfOI"d.B, ·these two real pe.tho Bho-vr, I think they are the only two ·or the first category that show any real dei.>artui e tram the • • • • • It is possible to explain t!l.S.t. It is qui.te evident that ue have no case ot assurance tb.s.t bot!.l gt-o~is of ob£ervcrs, the observe1·s at.Starvation Peak and the observers at Los Alamos, s11"t-·· the oame point of ..... so that if' we were to merely ask ·lfba.t are the linite Within which ouch real paths might fall., it t'l.1l'lU3 out tha:t it migb.i; be eo short ae 12 miles instead of bei:ng 25 miles long, and in ths.t case i .,.; woulo. be directed almost directly to the North; it vould come doun veey ncs.rly .,"i·thin 2 degrees, 5 ~et;rees say, of the North,. In the case of the 'l'exao obE:Cl'\ratioI\.8, whe:::-eao I hav-e ind.icated and the maps show, we ha;rn Jl'.I.BJ.lY obaervut.tons by tra:1.ned observers, motion :J.o clearly almost directly North -to South. I have been informed that tllan are reasons for regarding the . . . . . oat here (ditch digger) . . . and you no·cice that this passeo reasonably close to Lubbock. The seme is true of the two earlier fireballs, those of Decembe~ 12 and Decembe1· 20. They both ps.saed • one passed centrally over Loo Al.a.mos and the other about six mil.eo North o-r the center, but this would not be trae . • • . . (ditch digge::) . Ono point that poasibly should have been me -i;ioned ea.'1'.'ller is this: I 1mo the more interested vhen Captain Neef came to my ottice and brought the December 5th incident to my mind because very nuch earlier I bad been conto.c·.:;ed firet by • • • White, Director of Texas Obs~rve!"s, in regard. to ·their remarkable green :na..-re aecn on January 1, 1948. Second, f'rom a tr. Pru1 tt, Director lforthweGtcrn Section, City &..~tion, o~ the Meteor Socie·Gy, I had been informed that earlier occurrences of bright green t'ireba.llo, r.ot too far f::.•om the Hanford area. When Captain Neef' came in ,;..r:i.th r(!l)orte of green fireballs ne~.r Lo.a Vegas and particularly when ho disclosed that the1-e l.'aG a Los Ala.mos near !Bs Vegas - the real !Qa Alamos - it 1.1ad much interest. Dr. 'BolJ.mray: Are there aey reports of theac from otlwr install&tions, such aa Troy, New York, or places like that? Dr. Le.Paz:. I xaised that ques..; ion end ! lmorr or no other cases. I mean to aay the a:~eaa from which these reports came, as in one, t'or such evidence as ..... , they do not relate to the green f'ireballs; they relate to the daylight occurrence of hcrlzo.ntaJ. moving, bright wbite obJecte - same in Memphis, Tem1essee iziMay, 1948 - tbat :..a not too far from Oak Ridge. They relate to --- PAGE 9 --- • Con.fer~nco on AERIAL PHEUO.MlfflA Page 8 the Ranfo1:d area as far as the Pru1tt observations go, a?Jd to the observations that I 81re mentio 1ed. here in the I.!ts Vege.s-Los Alamos e.rea • o . • • • • A very curious thing has came to light during these investigations. I published not long ago n.n artiole in Science mustrated on the recovery of the • o • • • T~m meteorite. The -'Yi.me that fell: Februnry 18, 1948, the rumor got around sameholf' in l,orthern Kensas and Southern Kansas that it was a Russian bomb, and 1 t ,mu e.imed at the geogra1>hical center of the Unived States which is not -very far :."rem •• o • • Apparently, a great many p~le gave credence to that rumor and vere d~llghted mi.en 'tre i'inall.y recovered meteoritee up there and pro·red :l.t waan 8 ·, eeything but e-.n ol:dinary mcteor1 te :fall. Incidentally, 1 t did not have the cha:racteristics of tb.e ~ fireba:l.l we're t-Olk1ng about here. There mis a.n air transpor·i; pilot wo made a moet curious observation while fly-.lng near Cher-oourg on January 16, 1946. His observation was tbe observation of a bounning meteor. After 'tfliat I •ve been telling you about the green 1'1::e­ balls, you. probably think it not unreasonable that a meteorite should bounce but to thr~ meteorlytical mind J..;hat seems very hard to swallow. The interest is ·that oae or your ovn persons here at Los Alamos, one aDd confirmed at least in ~ b;r four othe!' persona, SE',v one of the green f"in:bal.le come down e:od then glido of'f horizontally. 1lhe bouncing rueteor1te 1a, manually ezplained by having it fom, say sinusoidal motion lying in about the plane at wich the observer ·ma loo't:1.ng so that he first eav the high point of the curve or the peak. Thlain the absence ot sound. Dr. Teller: Did I und rstand you cor,:ectly that the velocity ot the object appears to be some 50 kilometers per second? Dr. Lo.Paz: No. In the case of the green i>ireballe sanething between 3 miles per second ond 12 miles per eecond. l)epeM.ing, you see, it you choose one ruled map or another. For exnnrple, let me illustrate how that aff"ects the velocity cleterm:l.nat1on. This is the one I th1nk poesibl7 best repre11ents the observations of the case ot the fireball of December 12. That is the pat~ I assu:ne the Los Alamos observers sav the same point of the curves that the Starvation Peak observers d1d, likevioe to the point ot disappearance. It we deny that possibility, the pathmipt shorten to this dotted Une. (Dr. LaPaz worked on maps ....ri~i.h Dr. Teller, explaining paths.) Drappillg from 25 to eome• thing betveen ll and 12 miles. The January .30 observation gave us our first long path. Dr. Teller: J!ow long was it? Dr. La.Paz: The firet observatio~ we bad here indicated . . . . • That vss 'because of errors in the deter.llina.t1on ot the azimuth at t.b.e point of begin• ning, made due to the faulty transit they used. But that's correct that the path runs aver 100 miles. Dr. Teller: And how long does it take? Dr. La.Paz: Duration estimatec range t'rom 5 to around 14 secon.do. I think that a 10 second av-era&re is about the beat, that vould give about 10 miles per second. Dr. Bradbury: Green ie not an unknOffl'l. color in meteors! Dr. LaPa.z: If I were to rewrite the report that I first presented on that 8\lb­ ject, instead of oa.ying "re.rely observed0 tbis color green, I think I woul4 DOY ea.y "never observed". You sometimes see green, Dr. ·Bradbury, but it 1a a blue­ green. The blue♦-g?"een color. ie rare., but it ie observed. Por instance, Dr. Shem.an Smith 9 s observation wae essentially a blue-green, but on the bluo side. Dr. Bradbury: What other colon do you see 1n meteors? --- PAGE 14 --- Confe1·ence on AERIJ\.L PBENOMENA • Page 13 Dr. :ta.Paz: mu tee chiefly. If' you look closely snd Yi thout interference 'from outside liglrts, yellmrs, oranges and reds. Dr. :era.clbury: But it's apparently a yellowish-green we 9 re t.a.1k1ng G.bout here. If you can eee a bluish-green, you can aleo a,ee yellows and whites. Dr. laPaz: '!here is some defect, possibly in the vision, that %'8qu1ree a pretty high intensity in that yellow-green before it 9s uoUd 1n a meteor fall. Dr. Bradbury: Looks like greenCZ Dr. LaI'az: Yes it does, that 0 s perfectly true. Now here's a peculiar property of thoae yellov.-gr"en fireballs - same people vill ref'er to them as red. The only exple..ne.tion that I can tbillk of is they report afterwards that they m:e what ~a@ exposure to a very green-blUioh light i"ather thnn -the Ugb.t itself• I donit lm.ov if that 1s correct. And, incidentally, due to your observation, I don qt kno\-r how to explain the ina.bility of meteor 9baervers to report this color, but, I eim;ply know it doesn't occur. You So through long lists, :;.-enega.d like those of the American Meteor Society, you will tilld, I i.JDaSi.ne, not l 1n 100 where a geen is mentioned. Even in the case of the ? ehowere, were you have largo nUinbera of very brigt.t colors• let me recall eooiething that allot you must have seen. The • • • • • shower of Oetober 9, 1946 - ~ here who so.v that? '!'here veN large numbers ot e:.ctremelJ bright fireball.a at that ti?r.e. Kaplan himaelf' recalled that they were blue, maybe blus•sreen, but never yellow 0 green. And I observ~d those und.er very to.vorable circumstances - ve were ny1ns a.t about 20.,000 f et in e. B-29. We had no absorption ettecta at ell. They def'ir:i te1Y' did not shov hues or green. Dr. Bradbury: You mentioned the noiae problem also. The noise occurs only when ·the meteot' i tselt blows up, breaks up? La.Paz: No, tb&t isn't strictly ·i;rue. You have, in addition to the hollow D:t•. sound, the normal sound of ~ breaku!) of the • • • • • You have headwind; you're near the path. You get a real ahock; 'to-r 1J1Stance, we have ••••• apparently­ broken up by that hea.dwave, shock wave, _in the caee ot the !ford.en County-P'alla. And then from the turbulence and retlections eJ.l the way along the path,~ liill have a. rumbling 'Qbich nyxy endure oot for the matter~ a tenth of a second, bQt for m1nutee, and they~re rw rough. Dr. Bradb"UrY: But these occur fairly close to the tra,Jeetory? Dr. Le.Paz: Ro. In the case ot ~ Norden County Fells aaa,n, they were heard clear doim to . . . . . City. •Shakes buildings that rar away. The •••• o Pe.Us were> heard up to 300 miles from the point ot 1-()act. Dr. ~48.dbury: Large number of observations ••.••.. Dr. LaPa.z: Bo, the.re again I checked very care:tw.ly because I we concerned. I am trying despMENA Pagc 17 Dr. L~.Paz: To. tbe case of the Texa.a fall., thie is very rough; I didn't see i ·c, I can only bs.se an estimate eey on the comparisons that -were made with the moon e.o to size and total intensity. In the case of the Texao fal.l it 'li'Ould certainly be com:puable to - it va.s one of the brightest observed f:treballs ia ·t;otal. intenuity . . . . In the case o:f the Sto.rvation Peak incident, we can compare it w"l th Vemis which was conveniently located, e.nd 1 t eert.'3.inl.y ,,as or l'Jtellar mae,uitude minus 4., possibly a little brighter. That comparison was ?Dade aJ..,.zoct immediately after the obs~rvation. . .... Mr. Hoyt: It ws very bright a.nd clee.r that night. Dr. Teller: You saw i t at 6 o'clock? Mr. Boyt: At five minu·tea to eix. Very, ve_ry clear that night. (ciitc;h digger., in between ditcn digger, a. tw coherent remsrks:) Dr..Hanley: In 1945 or 1946 I observed practically the same thing ao in this le·tter. We thought it vas a roman candlo. Definitely light green in color. I am still 1;,crried about the fact that they don't report ~ green color 1n these :tallE. Dr. Bred.bury: Lack ot noise, lack of .... , the lack of these things wOUld be . qually astounding for o.rry Jllaterial object....•. Dr. LaPa.z: Dr. Kapl.E.n suggested the poas1bil1ty or the same sort of phenanenon that he cculd produce experimentally in hio laboratory . • . • snd he tells me tmder certs.in eonditions he can produc-e a globe or lamps of yellOT-Jisb.--e;reen light • . . • . He conjectured ~or a m1nt.te that that might have eome rele.ti011 • an artificial aurora. Comdr. M:llldclkorn: As long &s you brought that up, MaJ. Johnson bao a letter I obtained from Gen. Bunker vhich ma,y be pertinent. Gen. Bunker transmitted the inf'ormation you•ve heard to the Air Materiel. Carmnand, and in reply received n letter f'rom e.n Air Force General vho recently returned tran AlD.eka. I'll let Dr. Le.Paz read this. Dr. LaPaz: This ia closely related to 'What I was talking about. It begins: "Dear Bunker: Received your interesting phenanena 0'f l. J'ebruary and p:romptly turned i t over to Boward . . . . now eaddled. v1 th the responsib1li ty of clues. Regard. as coiucidentol. that on dates JOU mention Gen. Carroll vas in Fairbanks, AJ.ook;a., and on his return r-el&.ted tbat he bad never seen be:tore in his lite such a beautitul technical dieplay of Wa:rthern Lights. I~e v.aat these people have seen ie a reflection fra-.i the •••• ~ these pyro­ technics. So -ra.r ais we know., it ie etill phenomena and not ma:torial. Best Regards~ Paul". --- PAGE 19 --- Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 18 Dr. LaPe.z: J'..ay I mske the observation t-hat if you look in the chapter by .••.• , you~ll find that in Alaska where this observation was reported, there are very few times s.t this season of the year 't.,hen you can•t see an 11urora. Dr. Teller: I have the feeling that i t is . o . . eith.er a discovery in physical psychology or ..... Dr. La.Paz: I thought that psychol.ogical element ,101,.wl come in here! Dr. Telle:;:-: Here is a slightly irrelevant question - you brought 1n the fly­ ing discs. What is the connection? Dr.. La.P~-~: I didn~t bring in the flying discs. Mr. neuburger: I brought in t.he matter ot the f'lying discs because the Air Force, a.a I tmderstand, now have claesed the flying d1sos and these fireballs into one category. Captain Neef: •... The ODl.y indication we be.ve is a l.etter from MAC in Waohington Saturday where they indica.tGd the old project Sign is ~ project Grudgo, which includes the phenome:oa observed in Rew Mexico. They knew or tbis meeting and were ~oing to send a represcm.tative. Dr. L&Paz: I Just asked Mr. Hoyt a moment o.go how he would cg man-made that passes overhead at the heigltt ot 8•10 miles, at this ap~ed, could be inaudible. Dr. Teller: You think it could be? Comdr. Ma.ndelkorn: I think 1 t could b~. 'lb.e only . Dr. Tf:ller: Even it it went at the speed. ot 10 m11,s pe2: eecond't Comdr. MBndel.korn: Well, Dr. Teller: You see, at that time, the ..... begins to c01111e up. Dr. La.Pa&: You bet it does. --- PAGE 24 --- • Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA : - - - - -- • Page 23 D r.. l3radbury: ..... Dr . Teller : You have to get a shock \18.Ve out ot it. W1th a very t.miaJ.l object the shock uave Vl?uld be emaller tban .. • . I ba.ve not .made colcula.tiona on it, but it 0 s just common sense ... . • Dr. Le.Paz: I 1t-ould like t o ask a question. Ien 8 t it true in t h e case ot t oo- called light movement that you have very intense, luminous effects off tbem vithout noi~'l ( talk between Drs. Bradbury and La.Pa!. too taot and too jumbled to be traniscribed.) Comdr. Mandelkorn: From what Dr. Tell r said apparently a solid object eon• ver ging w i t h the atmosphere horizon·tally at o.bout 8 to 10 miles e.ltitude, 1t vs i ner dible that it wouldn 9 t be accompanied by eome sort ot sonie phenomenon. Dr. Teller! I w-ould like to repeat that to try to get sn estimate ot the si~~ of the object, ' t h a t it would have to have in order to get sound effects, 1e not an easy thing, but offhand I WPul.tl. a~ - this ie wtiat I -woulcl. e.xpoct - that you get a very small object, ,-a small as an inch or BDla4ler. Dr. LaPaz: . .... Dr. Teller: If I ral}elllber correctly, the :..ntensity, th~ amount of energy thnt goes into a ohock wave is proportio~ to th square of the velocity. The vel ocity tbat you have here proporti'onal to the square of the velocity and, of QOurse, is proport1.Qnal I sbould think probably to th' square ot the linear dimensions of the obJect tha't you bav~. Nov you hf;Lve 10 miles per eecond • •• velocity you have 20 vdles per second~ AO this could be, on that count, ten ·t;~es fainter .. t.be sound would be ten times fainter. OD the o\lM!r band, a m eteor1te that you· will • h e a r , I think, . • • • . that much a c r o s s Jl • • • • ( too much cross ta.lk) Dr. Teller: That i~ something we c0uld do right away. 1'ov I do not know, tried to get from you information on brightness, but I would like to ask again some details ..• o • Dr. l,aPaz: The brightest meteo;-1te tall 1n bistory, of Vhich ve have historioal. record, vae tbe .~. fall 1n 19()8, ~ 20 •••• est'-2na.tes the power, the light power, of' that .was ot the order of 101 • 1019 ergs w aecOlld. In the case of the Texas fall it wao prQbably not 100,0001;h as bright. --- PAGE 25 --- ., • Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA • Page 24 Dr. Teller: Nov let •s try to get a check ot thi e. (Dr. TelJ..er then spent approximately the next twenty minutes or so figuring on the blackboard - estimating light, apeed, kinetic energy, shock wave, etc.) Dr. ':reller: If' I can just believe ev~rything I have hel.U'd and put it together w1 th vb.at I theoretically believe in, 1t ought to be a material body • might be an electron. phenomenon. Dr. La'?az: You eee why rm puzzled, Dr. Teller. Nothing like this, to my knowledge, ha.a ever been observed in the case of meteorite drops. nr. Teller: It you go to a group like UCLA or sane other place where they have a good eoUDd laboratory, they ought to be able to take the a.boence of sound observations - that ie definitely incompatible, assuming that you know tb.e.t there are . o . and assuming that they have heard no sound from this, they ought to be ab:te to work an upper range upon the dgbt of the object which has been moving, end f'rom these figures I would be inclined to believe the obJeet could probably not have a heat 'lot something ' like l cubic centimeter. One centimeter in dimension, and that in turn would not have given the blinding effect, if it vas a material object. Dr. Bradbury: Wait a minute, I think you gve lett out something in light effects - you don't have to worry about kinetic energy. You can get your light from chemicals as well. Dr. Teller: That is correct. .. ........ Mr. Nevburger: This seemo to vind up the meeting. Dr. Bradbury: St1.ll don¥t feel tbat the meteor stuft is out. The puzzling thing is the long horizontal path; also, absence of noise is puzzling. hgc